Floppy disk formats

[Ken Springer]

Maybe someone from Atariland knows or knows where the information is,
since we could read IBM/PC floppies...

When the 3.5 floppy first appeared, in the PC world, if you had the
right drive and the computer's BIOS supported it, you could format a
floppy to 3 densities, 720k, 1.2mb, and 1.44mb.

You also had disks formatted by Windows95 and after, plus some disks
that were IBM formatted.

I'm trying to find out the difference between the Windows format and the
IBM format.

Why? I need to upgrade the BIOS on an old Gateway computer, and the
instructions specify the floppy used *must* be an IBM formatted floppy.
If you use a Windows formatted floppy, the update will fail.

Anyone know/remember the difference?

So far, asking the right questions in the right places in the PC world,
and Googling and Ask.com, have not come up with the answer. :-(


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3

[Dave Wade]

"Ken Springer" <***@greeleynet.com> wrote in message
news:j5imj1$6dj$***@dont-email.me...
> Maybe someone from Atariland knows or knows where the information is,
> since we could read IBM/PC floppies...
>
> When the 3.5 floppy first appeared, in the PC world, if you had the right
> drive and the computer's BIOS supported it, you could format a floppy to 3
> densities, 720k, 1.2mb, and 1.44mb.
>
> You also had disks formatted by Windows95 and after, plus some disks that
> were IBM formatted.
>
> I'm trying to find out the difference between the Windows format and the
> IBM format.

The only thing I can think of is long file name support. Windows floppies
can have long file names as well as short ones ....

>
> Why? I need to upgrade the BIOS on an old Gateway computer, and the
> instructions specify the floppy used *must* be an IBM formatted floppy. If
> you use a Windows formatted floppy, the update will fail.
>

Apart from long file names the only other thing I can think of is that a
Windows/2000, XP or later disk isn't normally bootable, but it there is an
option to create a DOS boot disk in Explorer.

> Anyone know/remember the difference?
>
> So far, asking the right questions in the right places in the PC world,
> and Googling and Ask.com, have not come up with the answer. :-(
>

I think that's because the question doesn't make sense. Almost all "PC" and
"ST" floppies are formatted FAT 16

>
> --
> Ken
>
> Mac OS X 10.6.8
> Firefox 6.0.2
> Thunderbird 6.0.2
> LibreOffice 3.3.3

Dave

[Ken Springer]

On 9/23/11 4:34 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
> "Ken Springer"<***@greeleynet.com> wrote in message
> news:j5imj1$6dj$***@dont-email.me...
>> Maybe someone from Atariland knows or knows where the information is,
>> since we could read IBM/PC floppies...
>>
>> When the 3.5 floppy first appeared, in the PC world, if you had the right
>> drive and the computer's BIOS supported it, you could format a floppy to 3
>> densities, 720k, 1.2mb, and 1.44mb.
>>
>> You also had disks formatted by Windows95 and after, plus some disks that
>> were IBM formatted.
>>
>> I'm trying to find out the difference between the Windows format and the
>> IBM format.
>
> The only thing I can think of is long file name support. Windows floppies
> can have long file names as well as short ones ....

And both long and short names are still there.

>
>>
>> Why? I need to upgrade the BIOS on an old Gateway computer, and the
>> instructions specify the floppy used *must* be an IBM formatted floppy. If
>> you use a Windows formatted floppy, the update will fail.
>>
>
> Apart from long file names the only other thing I can think of is that a
> Windows/2000, XP or later disk isn't normally bootable, but it there is an
> option to create a DOS boot disk in Explorer.
>
>> Anyone know/remember the difference?
>>
>> So far, asking the right questions in the right places in the PC world,
>> and Googling and Ask.com, have not come up with the answer. :-(
>>
>
> I think that's because the question doesn't make sense. Almost all "PC" and
> "ST" floppies are formatted FAT 16

True, but in the early versions of TOS, a floppy created by TOS cannot
be read by a PC until you manually change 2 bytes in the boot sector.
TOS wrote zeros, DOS and Windows put something else there. There were
more than one little utility that would make that change for you, and at
some point TOS was changed to write the correct values into those two bytes.

My unconfirmed thought is there is something similar to an IBM formatted
diskette.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3

[GMAN]

In article <j5j4hd$8c2$***@dont-email.me>, Ken Springer <***@greeleynet.com> wrote:
>On 9/23/11 4:34 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
>> "Ken Springer"<***@greeleynet.com> wrote in message
>> news:j5imj1$6dj$***@dont-email.me...
>>> Maybe someone from Atariland knows or knows where the information is,
>>> since we could read IBM/PC floppies...
>>>
>>> When the 3.5 floppy first appeared, in the PC world, if you had the right
>>> drive and the computer's BIOS supported it, you could format a floppy to 3
>>> densities, 720k, 1.2mb, and 1.44mb.
>>>
>>> You also had disks formatted by Windows95 and after, plus some disks that
>>> were IBM formatted.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to find out the difference between the Windows format and the
>>> IBM format.
>>
>> The only thing I can think of is long file name support. Windows floppies
>> can have long file names as well as short ones ....
>
>And both long and short names are still there.
>
>>
>>>
>>> Why? I need to upgrade the BIOS on an old Gateway computer, and the
>>> instructions specify the floppy used *must* be an IBM formatted floppy. If
>>> you use a Windows formatted floppy, the update will fail.
>>>
>>
>> Apart from long file names the only other thing I can think of is that a
>> Windows/2000, XP or later disk isn't normally bootable, but it there is an
>> option to create a DOS boot disk in Explorer.
>>
>>> Anyone know/remember the difference?
>>>
>>> So far, asking the right questions in the right places in the PC world,
>>> and Googling and Ask.com, have not come up with the answer. :-(
>>>
>>
>> I think that's because the question doesn't make sense. Almost all "PC" and
>> "ST" floppies are formatted FAT 16
>
>True, but in the early versions of TOS, a floppy created by TOS cannot
>be read by a PC until you manually change 2 bytes in the boot sector.
>TOS wrote zeros, DOS and Windows put something else there. There were
>more than one little utility that would make that change for you, and at
>some point TOS was changed to write the correct values into those two bytes.
>

TOS 1.4 i believe.


>My unconfirmed thought is there is something similar to an IBM formatted
>diskette.
>
>
>

[Jammer]

Can't you just format a floppy in the gateway,
format a: /s
from memory that creates a bootable floppy.



Ken Springer wrote:
> Maybe someone from Atariland knows or knows where the information is,
> since we could read IBM/PC floppies...
>
> When the 3.5 floppy first appeared, in the PC world, if you had the
> right drive and the computer's BIOS supported it, you could format a
> floppy to 3 densities, 720k, 1.2mb, and 1.44mb.
>
> You also had disks formatted by Windows95 and after, plus some disks
> that were IBM formatted.
>
> I'm trying to find out the difference between the Windows format and the
> IBM format.
>
> Why? I need to upgrade the BIOS on an old Gateway computer, and the
> instructions specify the floppy used *must* be an IBM formatted floppy.
> If you use a Windows formatted floppy, the update will fail.
>
> Anyone know/remember the difference?
>
> So far, asking the right questions in the right places in the PC world,
> and Googling and Ask.com, have not come up with the answer. :-(
>
>

[Ken Springer]

On 9/28/11 8:43 AM, Jammer wrote:
> Can't you just format a floppy in the gateway,
> format a: /s
> from memory that creates a bootable floppy.

I could, but that wouldn't answer my question. :-)

I'd like to definitively find out the *exact* format of an IBM formatted
floppy, so I can be sure I've followed the BIOS instructions to the letter.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3

[Ari Feldman]

On 2011-09-28 11:21:16 -0400, Ken Springer said:

> On 9/28/11 8:43 AM, Jammer wrote:
>> Can't you just format a floppy in the gateway,
>> format a: /s
>> from memory that creates a bootable floppy.
>
> I could, but that wouldn't answer my question. :-)
>
> I'd like to definitively find out the *exact* format of an IBM
> formatted floppy, so I can be sure I've followed the BIOS instructions
> to the letter.

Hi Ken,

You can try this page for reference:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/75131

Given that the "IBM" format is actually an MS-DOS format, I think
you're safe here. As you may know, early versions of TOS could read IBM
discs but not format them due to a difference in the number of FAT
entries. I seem to recall the ST wrote 5 and MS-DOS used 2...

Hope this helps...

[Ken Springer]

On 9/28/11 8:08 PM, Ari Feldman wrote:
> On 2011-09-28 11:21:16 -0400, Ken Springer said:
>
>> On 9/28/11 8:43 AM, Jammer wrote:
>>> Can't you just format a floppy in the gateway,
>>> format a: /s
>>> from memory that creates a bootable floppy.
>>
>> I could, but that wouldn't answer my question. :-)
>>
>> I'd like to definitively find out the *exact* format of an IBM
>> formatted floppy, so I can be sure I've followed the BIOS instructions
>> to the letter.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> You can try this page for reference:
>
> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/75131
>
> Given that the "IBM" format is actually an MS-DOS format, I think
> you're safe here. As you may know, early versions of TOS could read IBM
> discs but not format them due to a difference in the number of FAT
> entries. I seem to recall the ST wrote 5 and MS-DOS used 2...
>
> Hope this helps...

Hi, Ari,

Thank for that link, I've bookmarked it. :-)

Have you seen it, in writing as part of an official type document, that
the IBM format is simply an MS_DOS format disk?

I'm not saying it isn't, but with this very obviously obscure issue with
this computer, I'm leaving nothing, absolutely nothing, to chance.

I was thinking the ST wrote a 0, but I don't really know. I know I
always used a little utility to change the byte, and I'm thinking the
utility came from Little Green Footballs.

Sure wish getting my TT and Hades back up and running would migrate
faster to the top of the to do list! LOL


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3

[charlie]

i know a little on the subject
its something like tracks multipled by sectors =bytes +bootsector or
something
i followed a basic listing along time agoi to write my own formatting
program

it also requires a filler byte to write to all the newily format
sectors.

it was in gfa basic and simply called format .lst if i remmeber
correctily

charles

[Ari Feldman]

On 2011-09-28 23:16:51 -0400, Ken Springer said:

> On 9/28/11 8:08 PM, Ari Feldman wrote:
>> On 2011-09-28 11:21:16 -0400, Ken Springer said:
>>
>>> On 9/28/11 8:43 AM, Jammer wrote:
>>>> Can't you just format a floppy in the gateway,
>>>> format a: /s
>>>> from memory that creates a bootable floppy.
>>>
>>> I could, but that wouldn't answer my question. :-)
>>>
>>> I'd like to definitively find out the *exact* format of an IBM
>>> formatted floppy, so I can be sure I've followed the BIOS instructions
>>> to the letter.
>>
>> Hi Ken,
>>
>> You can try this page for reference:
>>
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/75131
>>
>> Given that the "IBM" format is actually an MS-DOS format, I think
>> you're safe here. As you may know, early versions of TOS could read IBM
>> discs but not format them due to a difference in the number of FAT
>> entries. I seem to recall the ST wrote 5 and MS-DOS used 2...
>>
>> Hope this helps...
>
> Hi, Ari,
>
> Thank for that link, I've bookmarked it. :-)
>
> Have you seen it, in writing as part of an official type document, that
> the IBM format is simply an MS_DOS format disk?
>
> I'm not saying it isn't, but with this very obviously obscure issue
> with this computer, I'm leaving nothing, absolutely nothing, to chance.
>
> I was thinking the ST wrote a 0, but I don't really know. I know I
> always used a little utility to change the byte, and I'm thinking the
> utility came from Little Green Footballs.
>
> Sure wish getting my TT and Hades back up and running would migrate
> faster to the top of the to do list! LOL

Hi Ken,

It's pretty well known in the old-school PC community that IBM disc
format is the MS-DOS disc format as Microsoft licensed MS-DOS to IBM.

My first computer was a PCjr, which ran PC-DOS 2.1, which was nothing
more than a re-branded version of MS-DOS. They differed only in some
driver files, a handful of utilities and the version of BASIC bundled
on them. IBM PCs could boot MS-DOS, etc.

All versions of the ST could read IBM / MS-DOS formatted discs assuming
compatible hardware - e.g. a 720KB drive. The reverse was not true
until TOS 1.4 due to the previously mentioned FAT differences. I
remember buying packs of 3.5" floppies at school at were already
formatted for IBMs and they worked fine.

Various utlities existed for the ST such as DC-Formatter and countless
others that allowed STs running older versions of TOS to format
compatible IBM / MS-DOS floppies.

What you couldn't do on an ST was format a bootable IBM floppy (FORMAT
/S) since the boot loader was tied to the computer's OS and host
architecture. Otherwise, they were fully interchangable.

Ari

[x***@cix.compulink.co.uk]

In message <4e8531a6$0$27403$***@news.xsusenet.com>,
***@gmail.com said:

>Various utlities existed for the ST such as DC-Formatter and countless
>others that allowed STs running older versions of TOS to format
>compatible IBM / MS-DOS floppies.
>
>What you couldn't do on an ST was format a bootable IBM floppy (FORMAT
>/S) since the boot loader was tied to the computer's OS and host
>architecture. Otherwise, they were fully interchangable.

There is also an Atari program DISKMOD.TOS used with a 512-byte
file BLOCK0.DAT which writes a PC-type boot sector to any
80-track 9-sector disk without affecting any other data that may
be on the disk. The first few bytes are 'ë4IBM 3.2' and near the
end there is the string 'IBMBIO COMIBMDOS COM', both of which
indicate that this is the IBM format.

As far as DOS is concerned, it's the first 3 bytes that matter.
i.e. 'EB 34 90' in hex.

The bootable floppies on both Ataris and PCs had the same start
bytes, followed by identifiers giving number of sides, tracks and
sectors, but then a small executable program in the rest of the
sector.

Regards, /Peter/

[Ari Feldman]

Peter,

I never knew about that utility. Thanks for the tip.

Ari

On 2011-10-02 11:05:38 -0400, ***@cix.compulink.co.uk said:

> In message <4e8531a6$0$27403$***@news.xsusenet.com>,
> ***@gmail.com said:
>
>> Various utlities existed for the ST such as DC-Formatter and countless
>> others that allowed STs running older versions of TOS to format
>> compatible IBM / MS-DOS floppies.
>>
>> What you couldn't do on an ST was format a bootable IBM floppy (FORMAT
>> /S) since the boot loader was tied to the computer's OS and host
>> architecture. Otherwise, they were fully interchangable.
>
> There is also an Atari program DISKMOD.TOS used with a 512-byte
> file BLOCK0.DAT which writes a PC-type boot sector to any
> 80-track 9-sector disk without affecting any other data that may
> be on the disk. The first few bytes are 'ë4IBM 3.2' and near the
> end there is the string 'IBMBIO COMIBMDOS COM', both of which
> indicate that this is the IBM format.
>
> As far as DOS is concerned, it's the first 3 bytes that matter.
> i.e. 'EB 34 90' in hex.
>
> The bootable floppies on both Ataris and PCs had the same start
> bytes, followed by identifiers giving number of sides, tracks and
> sectors, but then a small executable program in the rest of the
> sector.
>
> Regards, /Peter/

[Bravo Sierra Computers]

Please Find DC Formatter v.3.02 Attached! It's The Only Formatter I Use!

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:54:32 -0400

Peter,

I never knew about that utility. Thanks for the tip.

Ari

On 2011-10-02 11:05:38 -0400, ***@cix.compulink.co.uk said:

> In message <4e8531a6$0$27403$***@news.xsusenet.com>,
> ***@gmail.com said:
>
>> Various utlities existed for the ST such as DC-Formatter and countless
>> others that allowed STs running older versions of TOS to format
>> compatible IBM / MS-DOS floppies.
>>
>> What you couldn't do on an ST was format a bootable IBM floppy (FORMAT
>> /S) since the boot loader was tied to the computer's OS and host
>> architecture. Otherwise, they were fully interchangable.
>
> There is also an Atari program DISKMOD.TOS used with a 512-byte
> file BLOCK0.DAT which writes a PC-type boot sector to any
> 80-track 9-sector disk without affecting any other data that may
> be on the disk. The first few bytes are 'ë4?IBM 3.2' and near the
> end there is the string 'IBMBIO COMIBMDOS COM', both of which
> indicate that this is the IBM format.
>
> As far as DOS is concerned, it's the first 3 bytes that matter.
> i.e. 'EB 34 90' in hex.
>
> The bootable floppies on both Ataris and PCs had the same start
> bytes, followed by identifiers giving number of sides, tracks and
> sectors, but then a small executable program in the rest of the
> sector.
>
> Regards, /Peter/